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Walmart employees stop gunman, and get fired.


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#41 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:17 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


QUOTE
Flores who was standing next to a female employee, told them to leave. One of the men then fatally shot him.


Yeah. Because that probably would have gone differently if he hadn't told them to leave. rolleyes1.gif
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#42 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:19 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This is what you just linked, I don't see anything saying where he tired to stop them.


Misael Abdias Flores was at his local wings and pizza restaurant in Glen Burnie Friday night grabbing a bite to eat when four men came in wearing masks, weilding guns and announced a robbery.

Flores who was standing next to a female employee, told them to leave. One of the men then fatally shot him.
All of the masked men then ran out of the restaurant.

Anne Arundel police have arrested two teens in connection with the shooting, which happened about 9 p.m. in the 7600 block of Baltimore Annapolis Boulevard.

Vincent Ethan Bunner, 17, of the 100 block of Dunlap Road in Pasadena, was charged with first degree murder and Shawn Anthony Johnson, 18, of the 7800 block of Windbourne Drive in Glen Burnie, was charged with first degree murder, felony murder, armed robbery and several other related handgun charges.

The investigation is still active, and police ask anyone with information about the crime to call Detective Norval Cooper at 410-222-3453.



#43 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:20 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is what you just linked, I don't see anything saying where he tired to stop them.


That one actually goes in our column. 46 to go.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#44 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:21 AM

Too bad, the armed citizen is shut down. That will clean it up pretty quick.

Edited by Dallastt, 15 February 2011 - 07:22 AM.


#45 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:22 AM

He confronted them, instead of just giving what they asked for. But if you'd like more specific resisting...

http://abclocal.go.c...=...&id=7790566

http://www.boston.co...am_man_kil.html

But hey, if you want to put your life on the line, as well as anyone else who's around you, feel free to do so.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#46 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:23 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Too bad, the armed citizen is shut down. That will clean it up pretty quick.


Can you just not get to it? It's up.

http://thearmedcitizen.com/

Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#47 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:26 AM

http://www.wfaa.com/...y-97066619.html

This one didnt even involve a gun and happened right here in dfw.

http://www.chron.com...an/6750642.html

Man, try to help out your neighbors and get killed yourself...

http://www.nytimes.c...op-robbery.html

And this could have been you and your iphone...

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#48 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:27 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But hey, if you want to put your life on the line, as well as anyone else who's around you, feel free to do so.


Your life is on the line any time someone points a gun at you. Judging from your stance in this thread, I'm going to guess that you've never had to experience that unpleasantness.

Yes there is a HUGE risk involved in trying to disarm/subdue a robber, but there is also a huge risk involved every time you get in your car, take a shower, or DON'T try to disarm the bad guy. Maybe he takes your wallet/laptop/phone/whatever and goes about his day, sure. Or maybe he takes you hostage, rapes you and your girl, then brutally murders and dismembers you both.

Personally? I'll take the risk involved with disarming the bad guy every time. To each his own though.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#49 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:30 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 07:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your life is on the line any time someone points a gun at you. Judging from your stance in this thread, I'm going to guess that you've never had to experience that unpleasantness.

Yes there is a HUGE risk involved in trying to disarm/subdue a robber, but there is also a huge risk involved every time you get in your car, take a shower, or DON'T try to disarm the bad guy. Maybe he takes your wallet/laptop/phone/whatever and goes about his day, sure. Or maybe he takes you hostage, rapes you and your girl, then brutally murders and dismembers you both.

Personally? I'll take the risk involved with disarming the bad guy every time. To each his own though.

And all im saying is the risk of death is a lot higher when you confront an armed robber rather than not to.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#50 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:32 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And all im saying is the risk of death is a lot higher when you confront an armed robber rather than not to.


And what Ryan and I are both saying is that you have absolutely NO WAY to know that at the time.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#51 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:35 AM

That's the definition of risk. You don't know in this case, but from previous cases, you make your best decision. Previous cases obviously show that an armed robber is more likely to kill someone when they try to subdue him. If you feel that you are the exception and can take down anyone with a gun, then like I said, feel free. Will just be one more statistic, either aiding your belief or killing you.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#52 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:38 AM

Disarming/subduing robbers is NOT the exception, as the OP points out.

Man ... Courage sure is a scarce commodity these days.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#53 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:39 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Disarming/subduing robbers is NOT the exception, as the OP points out.

Man ... Courage sure is a scarce commodity these days.

Did you not read the rest of the thread? How many people are killed compared to how many actually stop them?

Man ... Intelligence sure is a scare commodity these days.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#54 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you not read the rest of the thread? How many people are killed compared to how many actually stop them?


Been here for the whole party champ.

Are we talking about the ones that actually tried to stop them, or the ones that were killed just because the robbers were maniacal killers?

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Man ... Intelligence sure is a scare commodity these days.


That's strikingly similar to my first facebook update this morning, actually.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#55 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:46 AM

Attempted subdue vs just give them what they want. Risk of dieing in both case.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#56 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:53 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 07:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can you just not get to it? It's up.

http://thearmedcitizen.com/


RESTRICTED ! -- Your request was denied because of its content categorization: "Internet Services;Weapons


sad.gif

Edited by Dallastt, 15 February 2011 - 07:54 AM.


#57 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:54 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 07:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Attempted subdue vs just give them what they want. Risk of dieing in both case.


Just attempting to subdue? I put the count at even, but that's ignoring the 2,200'ish google hits for "man stops robbery" and the armed citizen. That's counting your links where the person that was killed was actually physically involved in trying to stop a crime in progress. I specifically didn't include the one where the guy ran out into the dark and yelled that he had a gun. That's not going to stop anything, and is just idiotic.

So yeah. Not really the exception.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#58 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:55 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RESTRICTED ! -- Your request was denied because of its content categorization: "Internet Services;Weapons


sad.gif


Lame sad.gif
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#59 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:01 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just attempting to subdue? I put the count at even, but that's ignoring the 2,200'ish google hits for "man stops robbery" and the armed citizen. That's counting your links where the person that was killed was actually physically involved in trying to stop a crime in progress. I specifically didn't include the one where the guy ran out into the dark and yelled that he had a gun. That's not going to stop anything, and is just idiotic.

So yeah. Not really the exception.

So what about the 450,000+ google hits for man killed stopping robbery. And now youre putting words in my mouth. Or my keyboard I suppose. Attempting to stop/subdue a robber doesnt have to be physical. Regardless, until statistics are provided, no one is going to win. And way to pull in a super-biased gun website. This is exactly why I ignored all your posts on the first page. And shall continue to.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#60 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So what about the 450,000+ google hits for man killed stopping robbery. And now youre putting words in my mouth. Or my keyboard I suppose. Attempting to stop/subdue a robber doesnt have to be physical. Regardless, until statistics are provided, no one is going to win. And way to pull in a super-biased gun website. This is exactly why I ignored all your posts on the first page. And shall continue to.



Way to put the blinders on.


The website just speaks about news articles that show people can defend theselves.

#61 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:04 AM

Again I'd rather die trying that just die.

#62 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Way to put the blinders on.


The website just speaks about news articles that show people can defend theselves.

Exactly. Talk about blinders. Probably no news stories about how people die trying to defend themselves. Because those dont exist, obviously.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#63 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:06 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Again I'd rather die trying that just die.

And that's fine with me. I'd rather pay someone whatever's in my wallet to live.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#64 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:07 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So what about the 450,000+ google hits for man killed stopping robbery.


How many?

Attached File  stopping.jpg   50.64K   17 downloads

For reference - I used the real number. See below.

Attached File  stopped.jpg   53.85K   13 downloads

You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#65 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:09 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And that's fine with me. I'd rather pay someone whatever's in my wallet to live.




Cause you know that's what's going to happen.

#66 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cause you know that's what's going to happen.

Cause you know you're going to be able to subdue the guy robbing you, while giving a person who normally wouldn't kill you a reason to.

Either they have decided they are going to kill you, where handing them your wallet will still get you killed, and where trying to subdue them could possibly save your life.

Or they arent planning on killing you, where you can get out alive by handing over money, or you can possibly die by trying to subdue them.

Obviously there is no way to know what they are thinking, and every situation is different. Maybe you are planning on handing cash over, but then see an opportunity where you believe you can subdue them and go for it. Who knows. I believe there are more people out there willing to let you go alive if you hand over money compared to those guys that have already settled it in their head that they are going to kill anyone to rob them. Of course if I believed I had a higher chance of taking the robber down than getting killed, I would go for it too. But like you said, no way to know.

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#67 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:24 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Exactly. Talk about blinders. Probably no news stories about how people die trying to defend themselves. Because those dont exist, obviously.


Do you know why TheArmedCitizen exists? Because the liberal media (including that abortion known as Fox) would have us believe that guns are only used to kill innocent people. They do have a purpose beyond inspiration for a rap song though, believe it or not.

Let's knock that number down to under 40, shall we?

San Antonio, Texas: Soldier handles battle against suspected burglar
Indianapolis, Indiana: Homeowner Opens Fire, Shoots Burglar
Convenience store clerk shoots robber
Pensacola, Florida: Homeowner shoots teens who attempted home invasion
Indianapolis, Indiana: Man fatally shot during car break-in
Hazleton, Pennsylvania: Home invasion intruder killed
Sacramento, California: Would-be robbers flee after market employee fires gun in air

Yes, I just pulled the first seven links from TAC. The point is that people do routinely thwart would be robbers.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#68 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:25 AM

You keep saying that he "normally would not kill you" HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS.

Also what at what point are you going to stand up for yourself? I mean it, What's your breaking point?

#69 MrR0b0t0

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:31 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 08:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You keep saying that he "normally would not kill you" HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS.

Also what at what point are you going to stand up for yourself? I mean it, What's your breaking point?

I just put that in the hypothetical. If they dont plan on killing you, and you attempt to subdue them, and fail, then you're dead. Obviously if their original intention is to kill you regardless, then attempting to subdue them is the logical answer. Not arguing that point.

And if I believed I had a higher chance of dieing by not doing anything, then of course I'd "stand up for myself." However, I'm not going to throw myself into a situation blindly where my chance of dieing skyrockets. If I got robbed at gunpoint, and I sincerely thought he was going to kill me regardless of what I do, then of course I would attempt to take him down. I wont, however, raise the risk of my death by trying to take down someone who I believe wont kill me if I leave them alone. Obviously there are cases where attempting to protect myself could save my life, just as often as there are cases that attempting to protect yourself gets you killed.

Edited by MrR0b0t0, 15 February 2011 - 08:32 AM.


QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You ignore my posts because you can't effectively argue against them. And that's fine. Few really can.


#70 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:34 AM

QUOTE (MrR0b0t0 @ Feb 15 2011, 08:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wont, however, raise the risk of my death by trying to take down someone who I believe wont kill me if I leave them alone.


That belief should be settled right about the time that they point a gun at you. If it isn't, you're just delusional.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#71 Becky My Darling

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:37 AM

These rules (WalMart rules) have been in place forever. In fact, the majority of big corporation stores have the same rules as that. I know Best Buy does.

Like stated earlier, I'm sure they were put in place to save the company's ass. Any big name company with a ton of liability would do that. I don't see what the problem is.

Although, I don't agree on firing the employee.
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#72 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:41 AM

QUOTE (Beck @ Feb 15 2011, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
These rules (WalMart rules) have been in place forever. In fact, the majority of big corporation stores have the same rules as that. I know Best Buy does.

Like stated earlier, I'm sure they were put in place to save the company's ass. Any big name company with a ton of liability would do that. I don't see what the problem is.

Although, I don't agree on firing the employee.


What makes this interesting is the liability question if the bad guy does go nuts and start shooting people.

I think about that every time I read our employee handbook's section about weapons and how they're prohibited. If a bad guy shows up at our offices (which I'm rarely at, but still) and starts shooting people, how does the policy prohibiting legal CHL holders from bringing their weapons into work affect the company's liability? I mean, they're literally prohibiting you from defending yourself.

I don't know the answer, but it makes for good brain food.

And I'll slap the first person that says something idiotic about the probability of being shot in an office building. rolleyes1.gif
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#73 pdr

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:49 AM

Wow. Sometimes I think people argue just for the sake of arguing. Wal-Mart's policy, as written, is extremely short sighted and if followed to the T can save lives, and (GASP!) lose lives. There's no leeway for one to make a judgment call in order to adapt and react to the presented threat. It's real easy to google and say "Oh hay I found 400,000 articles that shows the "hero" got shot, but only 374,000 where they didn't!" Yeah. That's great. I don't think stats or google is something you should go to in a time of crisis. Know your skill set, remain calm, get an understanding of the situation at hand, and react accordingly. Unfortunately most aren't able to register the aforementioned under duress, which is probably a reason why that poorly written Wal-Mart policy is in place (you know, outside of insurance reasons and other CYA matters). Last thing I'd be thinking about under duress is the future of my employment.

If that's been covered above then my bad. I skimmed much of it. I watched a long vid on Krav Maga last night, because I was bored. Wal-Mart should do what the IDF does. laugh.gif Wait, no. That'd be bad.

#74 Dallastt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:49 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What makes this interesting is the liability question if the bad guy does go nuts and start shooting people. I think about that every time I read our employee handbook's section about weapons and how they're prohibited. If a bad guy shows up at our offices (which I'm rarely at, but still) and starts shooting people, how does the policy prohibiting legal CHL holders from bringing their weapons into work affect the company's liability? I mean, they're literally prohibiting you from defending yourself.

I don't know the answer, but it makes for good brain food.

And I'll slap the first person that says something idiotic about the probability of being shot in an office building. rolleyes1.gif



Well I don't bring one in the office because I'd get fired, but we dont' have any 30:06 signs at my work just a "no guns" sign.

#75 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:52 AM

QUOTE (pdr @ Feb 15 2011, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I watched a long vid on Krav Maga last night, because I was bored.


I have yet to see that "system" demonstrated in a manner that didn't make me pee myself from laughing at how ineffective it would be.

I know, I know ... But if the IDF uses it like the people I've seen? Then it's a miracle that there are still any of them alive.
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#76 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:53 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well I don't bring one in the office because I'd get fired, but we dont' have any 30:06 signs at my work just a "no guns" sign.


Same here. It's against policy for employees, but if you don't work for us, come on in with your weapons.

Seems kind of stupid when you think about it smile.gif
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#77 pdr

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:00 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have yet to see that "system" demonstrated in a manner that didn't make me pee myself from laughing at how ineffective it would be.

I know, I know ... But if the IDF uses it like the people I've seen? Then it's a miracle that there are still any of them alive.


Haha .. I'm sure it's about as funny as someone demonstrating their newly learned sick MMA skills.

#78 pdr

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:01 AM

QUOTE (Dallastt @ Feb 15 2011, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well I don't bring one in the office because I'd get fired, but we dont' have any 30:06 signs at my work just a "no guns" sign.


We don't have any of those signs. Wait .. it might be in the copy / fax room. I never go in there because I'm kind of a big deal and have people that go in there for me. I'm going to go check!

#79 Samsquanch

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:03 AM

QUOTE (pdr @ Feb 15 2011, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Haha .. I'm sure it's about as funny as someone demonstrating their newly learned sick MMA skills.


That's a very fitting comparison, but these people are supposed to be experts. School owners and such. frantic4yc.gif

QUOTE (pdr @ Feb 15 2011, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We don't have any of those signs. Wait .. it might be in the copy / fax room. I never go in there because I'm kind of a big deal and have people that go in there for me. I'm going to go check!


If they're not clearly posted out in the open then they're invalid smile.gif
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

#80 pdr

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (sam @ Feb 15 2011, 09:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's a very fitting comparison, but these people are supposed to be experts. School owners and such. frantic4yc.gif



If they're not clearly posted out in the open then they're invalid smile.gif


I've been strongly considering taking some sort of self defense class. I figure it's in my best interest.

And I just checked - there aren't any of those notices in my office. Just the labor law posters. I wonder if they're on the entrances to the building or something




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