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thermogenic efficiency of protein


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#1 technodrive

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:55 PM

so my roommate is a gym rat. he can lift much more me in most cases, but even under heavy load i can run circles around him, to include on obstacle courses. he loves talking for hours about his crossfit workouts or max benches or whatever else the fuck it is that i tune out. i go to the gym on average never. (just a bit of background setting)

 

anyway right now hes trying to tell me how much better it is to take protein before activity as opposed to carbs. says its the most thermogenicly efficient nutrient. normally i wouldnt care much, but for some reason i looked this one up and i cant find anything supporting it. 

 

so while im not so much arguing it with him since i dont know anything about it, i was wondering if guys like patrick could tell me more. and i guess im kinda pissed off but that may be unrelated. 


Why would it be creepy? Its for science.


#2 technodrive

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:14 AM

sorry it comes off sort of as a quick rant, but i really would like to here what guys here have to say


Why would it be creepy? Its for science.


#3 waijai

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:22 AM

Bro-science term "thermogenically efficient" I find the preceeding statement humerous!



#4 pdr

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:48 AM

Will give a better response later, and while your friend sounds like a total asswhip he isn't entirely wrong. He's just a tad off base and failing to realize the subjectiveness of his statement, and more importantly he doesn't seem to understand the difference in the two macronutrients and their uses as energy sources. So at first glance it seems he read on a forum about the thermogenic efficiency of protein and he's totally brosciencing your face off.



#5 technodrive

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

fucking broscience


Why would it be creepy? Its for science.


#6 pdr

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:01 AM

So I planned on going into detail about protein's "thermogenic efficiency" but the more I read your friend's statement (or your retelling of it) the more I feel I really don't have to because as written above his claim is just silly and very "duh".  Is that exactly how he preaches it, as if he's under the pretense that there is some huge debate between gym bros as to whether carbs or protein is better pre-workout for cutting fat? Cuz...I mean...yeah. There isn't.  Your body can't store protein long term, it must be replenished daily to assist the building of muscle and prevent breakdown, and muscle is key to increasing your body's energy requirements. If you're working in a carb deficit then through ketogenesis your body will turn stored bodily fat into ketones, or energy, thus satisfying some of the body's needs. YAY! It's not as simple as that but I hope it's clear enough. So if you're cutting fat why would you pound carbs preworkout?

 

Of course that's me working under the assumption that he's talking about what is best for cutting fat since he brings up "thermogenic efficiency". If I'm wrong and he's talking about protein being the best shit evarrrrrrrr for energy purposes, well, then I really don't know what the shit is going on. 

 

I'm just confused I guess. 



#7 technodrive

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 03:01 PM

really nothing about cutting fat. neither of us have any significant percentage of fat.

 

i get the turning to fat when the carbs run out part of it, but hes just talking about having energy for the actual work out as far as i can tell. 


Why would it be creepy? Its for science.


#8 ayo

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:17 AM

My basic knowledge and experience is that carbs are going to give you a more sustained source of energy pre-workout. 

Totally useless info, but I always feel my best workouts are after oatmeal. 

 

However, there's a lot of research/trends that steer away from that concept right now. To me it seems like most people get caught up in that for the sake of bro-ing their roommates. I usually just stick to "I need to eat something or this is going to suck."

 

I know a guy who eats beef jerky exclusively on 3hr rides. Seems to workout. 

 

I can continue these useless bits of info.



#9 SassyMcFlowerPants

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:16 PM

My basic knowledge and experience is that carbs are going to give you a more sustained source of energy pre-workout. 

Totally useless info, but I always feel my best workouts are after oatmeal. 

 

However, there's a lot of research/trends that steer away from that concept right now. To me it seems like most people get caught up in that for the sake of bro-ing their roommates. I usually just stick to "I need to eat something or this is going to suck."

 

I know a guy who eats beef jerky exclusively on 3hr rides. Seems to workout. 

 

I can continue these useless bits of info.

 

 

 

 

proteins can be used for energy .The amino group is stripped off ( oxidative deamination ) and transferrred to an acceptor.The deaminated amino acid is now a keto acid that is a carbon skeleton. Of the 20 common amino acids 14 of them give a carbon skeleton that cab be used to make glucose .....4 of the others make one fragment for glucose and one fragment for fat. ( acetyl CoA or acetoacetyl CoA ). Only two common amino acids produce carbon skeletons that produce only acetyl or acetoacetyl CoA viz., leucine and lysine. The liver is quite able to o make GLUCOSE for blood glucose and tissue energy from the amino acid alanine ( from muscle )which is deaminated to pyruvate..and thence to glucose. Since one must have carbohydrate or a precursor of carbohydrate to burn fat...when carbs are low ( such as in Adkin's dieet ) then protein/amino acids will supply the carb skeletons to burn fats . Even chain fatty acids cannot produce any glucose .
Source(s):
Ph.D. Biochem BS Chem
 
wonder how correct that is.  seems like it's saying if you don't have carbs, then you need protein for energy because it makes the carb skeletons for fat, and I guess if you don't have it, it will use your muscles!  But if you're a workout dude, you would want those proteins to build muscle, so you'd need carbs.


#10 Spanish

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:29 PM

Seems like the simple way to put things would be:

 

  1. Body uses carbs for energy
  2. If no carbs present, body will use proteins for energy
    • Unless body is in ketosis, where it will used fat for energy

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#11 SassyMcFlowerPants

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:40 PM

So how do you lose fat out of ketosis?

#12 pdr

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:59 AM

Ketogenesis.



#13 Focus2069

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:16 PM

ok, all fancy talk aside.

 

what is better pre-workout if your trying to lose weight... carbs or protein?

 

I usually workout first thing in the morning, before breakfast.  I like Karbolic because I feel like it gives me more energy, but if it is affecting weight loss, i will stop taking it till I lose some of my gut.


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#14 xs

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

Protein. Why? Because that's what steak gives you. 


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#15 pdr

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:10 AM

Protein. 



#16 SassyMcFlowerPants

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:35 AM

what is better pre-workout if you're trying to get swollhouse?

 

weightgainer 3000?



#17 pdr

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

Short answer: protein. I'd be more concerned with what you're consuming post workout, and what your programming and overall diet looks like for that. Gotta eat big to get big. Can't supplement your way there.



#18 Focus2069

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:53 PM

overall diet farking sucks, have tried multiple times to clean it up and failed every time, I find the preceeding statement humerous!.

 

 

So, protein shake upon wakeup, then preworkout on the way out the door to the gym.  skip the karbolic.

 

then mcdonalds breakfast burritos after! yey!


Edited by Focus2069, 17 July 2013 - 09:53 PM.

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#19 SassyMcFlowerPants

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:52 PM

Making your own breakfast burrito minus the burrito is probably gonna work for you quicker. I drink too make any significant body changes, listen to pdr he's the local hero.

#20 xs

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:39 AM

Patrick isn't ripped because he has a perfect diet. He is ripped because he works 10 times as hard as all of us combined. His drive and passion to achieve maximum potential are thing we should envy.


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#21 pdr

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:11 AM

Thanks. Fisty bump. One of my main goals in training is to show everyone that they are more than capable of doing anything I can do, with the possibility of doing it at a much higher level, and how simple the formula is to start getting into shape. We just gotta get the mind right, which is also a lot less daunting then it may seem. 

 

Oh and my response above about "eating big to get big" is in response to sassy asking how to get all swollhouse; it has nothing to do with cutting fat. Don't eat pizza and burritos if that's the case. 



#22 Spanish

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:21 PM

what is better pre-workout if you're trying to get swollhouse?

 

weightgainer 3000?

Pre-workout.  Post-workout.  It doesn't really matter.

 

If you're trying to bulk up, your overall calorie count is what you really need to focus on.  If your body needs 4000 calories to reach a certain size, then you need to make sure your daily food intake is on par.


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#23 pdr

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:34 AM

Amen brohamman. I honestly can't remember the last time I ate or consumed some craze amaze supplement prior to training or after. I make sure I have food in me, and afterward I just find something to eat. 



#24 Spanish

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:08 PM

It's amazing what your learn over the years from trial and error.  Especially in regards to nutrition.

 

The supplement companies have taken something incredibly simple (eating food) and turned it into something incredibly complex.  No wonder beginners feel lost when they're looking for help.  It's information over-load.


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#25 technodrive

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:58 PM

trial and error is more or less what i go with.

i know better than to do something drastically different before a particularly strenuous event, but i eat what makes me not feel like shit.

before workouts thats usually oatmeal. 


Why would it be creepy? Its for science.


#26 Spanish

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

trial and error is more or less what i go with.

i know better than to do something drastically different before a particularly strenuous event, but i eat what makes me not feel like shit.

before workouts thats usually oatmeal. 

 

Then listen to your body, and keep eating oatmeal.  Don't listen to a bunch of bros online, saying you need to eat x before y in order to get to z.


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#27 technodrive

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:36 AM

Then listen to your body, and keep eating oatmeal.  Don't listen to a bunch of bros online, saying you need to eat x before y in order to get to z.

oh yes im certainly not following the way of the bro. i only started this thread to get a better understanding of what the fuck my roommate was talking about


Why would it be creepy? Its for science.





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